Plugin manager for EG

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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby jonib » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:43 am

kgschlosser wrote:is says that you do have to have it just don't bother until you want to sue someone.
I just meant that the copyright is yours but if it becomes a legal matter you need it registered to make it "official".

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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby Sem;colon » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:02 am

kgschlosser wrote:there is no legal implications that can take place from plugin author to EventGhost. now on the other hand... it can defiantly go the other way. and any plugin author that has any stated copyright other then a GNU should change this and remove anything other then the GNU. because technically that is infringement.

I don't think it's that simple, after all, the plugins are pieces of software on it's own and not part of EventGhost (besides the ones that are shipped with EventGhost of course)
EventGhost runs without them and they don't replace functionalities in EventGhost (usually) but only add something. Also plugins don't contain EventGhost property, it's more like they use the EventGhost API.
I'm not a license expert, but it would be interesting to know if it's possible to sell plugins or not, as I know there are plugins for EG that are sold. (And I'm just about to create a huge one with this intention)
Anyway, they are not uploaded in the forum of course.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:25 am

t
Sem;colon wrote:
kgschlosser wrote:there is no legal implications that can take place from plugin author to EventGhost. now on the other hand... it can defiantly go the other way. and any plugin author that has any stated copyright other then a GNU should change this and remove anything other then the GNU. because technically that is infringement.

I don't think it's that simple, after all, the plugins are pieces of software on it's own and not part of EventGhost (besides the ones that are shipped with EventGhost of course)
EventGhost runs without them and they don't replace functionalities in EventGhost (usually) but only add something.
I'm not a license expert, but it would be interesting to know if it's possible to sell plugins or not, as I know there are plugins for EG that are sold. (And I'm just about to create a huge one with this intention)
Anyway, they are not uploaded in the forum of course.



the thing i posted about the gnu licensing

kgschlosser wrote:If I write a plug-in to use with a GPL-covered program, what requirements does that impose on the licenses I can use for distributing my plug-in? (#GPLAndPlugins)

It depends on how the program invokes its plug-ins. If the program uses fork and exec to invoke plug-ins, then the plug-ins are separate programs, so the license for the main program makes no requirements for them.

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins. This means you must license the plug-in under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license and distribute it with source code in a GPL-compliant way.

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, but the communication between them is limited to invoking the ‘main’ function of the plug-in with some options and waiting for it to return, that is a borderline case.


it's from here

https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.en.html

right from gnu..

and the functionality of eg works in a manner that would be paragraph 2

If the program dynamically links plug-ins, and they make function calls to each other and share data structures, we believe they form a single program, which must be treated as an extension of both the main program and the plug-ins. This means you must license the plug-in under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license and distribute it with source code in a GPL-compliant way.

plugins can be loaded and unloaded without the need for restarting the software..that makes it dynamic
that fits..
information is exchanged between plugin and core... and not just the plugin telling the core what to do and vice versa.
that fits..

and shared data structured... eg.PluginClass and eg.ActionClass those are used to create the plugin which shares an eg data structure because the use of them causes an override of the data structures methods and attributes, and the use of internationalism or the use of eg.persistantData shares a plugin data structure with the Core.
that fits...

well 3 out of 3

then this has to take place
"This means you MUST license the plug-in under the GPL or a GPL-compatible free software license and distribute it with source code in a GPL-compliant way."

MUST as in you have to, there is no choice about it, it's a requirement, don't like it then don't make the plugin or don't distribute it.
simple as that. plain as the nose on my face.


Sem;colon wrote:after all, the plugins are pieces of software on it's own and not part of EventGhost

this i am going to disagree with. because they are not capable of running without EG using EG is a requirement and because of that and the above GNU information it MUST conform to the GNU

Sem;colon wrote:I'm not a license expert, but it would be interesting to know if it's possible to sell plugins or not, as I know there are plugins for EG that are sold. (And I'm just about to create a huge one with this intention)

I'm not either but from what i am reading on the GNU site you can only release it as GNU.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby jonib » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:29 am

Sem;colon wrote:but it would be interesting to know if it's possible to sell plugins or not, as I know there are plugins for EG that are sold.
The GNU GPL don't forbid the selling of code, it just demands that you provide the source code for anything that's covered by the license. No one could sell anything with Linux like Android phones if it was a problem.
So if you sell a plugin using GPL code you also need to give access to the source code for the buyer, and the buyer is allowed to distribute the source to others after.

Of course I'm no legal expert.

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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:31 am

jonib wrote:
kgschlosser wrote:is says that you do have to have it just don't bother until you want to sue someone.
I just meant that the copyright is yours but if it becomes a legal matter you need it registered to make it "official".

jonib


see this is a loop hole..

because if you don't register then it is not "officially" copyrighted making it "unofficial" and there for not copyrighted...
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby pearbear » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:17 am

kgschlosser wrote: the plugin should not be housed on the eventghost servers for free mind you for the purpose of private gain. and without the express permission of the EventGhost Administrator(s)

kgschlosser wrote:any kind of legal implications end if the plugin is obtained from this server, the reason being is that EventGhost is a not for profit outfit. and storing something on this server for personal gain without the express permissions of the eventghost organization is grounds for a lawsuit in and of it's self.

I don't know where you're getting this idea of "private gain". Just because someone doesn't give a GNU GPL license doesn't mean they're trying to profit from their intellectual property and it's certainly possible and legal to use GNU licensed software for "private gain".

kgschlosser wrote:what is stored on eventghost servers is the property of the eventghost organization.. plain and simple. now on the other hand if you put a link to a different site where it is located. then that is your business. but you also have to obtain permission to post this link.


Here is the TOU that you agree to when you register for an account on this forum:
By accessing “EventGhost” (hereinafter “we”, “us”, “our”, “EventGhost”, “http://www.eventghost.net/forum”), you agree to be legally bound by the following terms. If you do not agree to be legally bound by all of the following terms then please do not access and/or use “EventGhost”. We may change these at any time and we’ll do our utmost in informing you, though it would be prudent to review this regularly yourself as your continued usage of “EventGhost” after changes mean you agree to be legally bound by these terms as they are updated and/or amended.

Our forums are powered by phpBB (hereinafter “they”, “them”, “their”, “phpBB software”, “www.phpbb.com”, “phpBB Group”, “phpBB Teams”) which is a bulletin board solution released under the “General Public License” (hereinafter “GPL”) and can be downloaded from http://www.phpbb.com. The phpBB software only facilitates internet based discussions, the phpBB Group are not responsible for what we allow and/or disallow as permissible content and/or conduct. For further information about phpBB, please see: http://www.phpbb.com/.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws be it of your country, the country where “EventGhost” is hosted or International Law. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us. The IP address of all posts are recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that “EventGhost” have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time should we see fit. As a user you agree to any information you have entered to being stored in a database. While this information will not be disclosed to any third party without your consent, neither “EventGhost” nor phpBB shall be held responsible for any hacking attempt that may lead to the data being compromised.


That doesn't say anything about all content posted on the site being the property of EventGhost or that using the forum for "private gain" is grounds for a lawsuit. If that's how you want things to work here then I suggest that the TOU should be changed and also that this information be added to a sticky "Forum Rules" post in every forum section. You also might want to check if making all content the property of EventGhost will make EventGhost liable for that content, in fact many forums have specific legalese to make it clear that they are not responsible for the user's content.

kgschlosser wrote:because if you don't register then it is not "officially" copyrighted making it "unofficial" and there for not copyrighted...

Wrong. From http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#mywork:
When is my work protected?
Your work is under copyright protection the moment it is created and fixed in a tangible form that it is perceptible either directly or with the aid of a machine or device.

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?
No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created.


You only need to register the copyright before you can file the lawsuit:
You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work.


Of course this is US law and may be different in other jurisdictions but it does apply to all members of the Berne Convention.

As for the issue of whether the GNU GPL V2 license of EventGhost requires that license for all EventGhost plugins I don't know enough about the specifics of the license or how EventGhost plugins work to comment but I'd be interested to hear more. My approach is to just respect the author's wishes for their intellectual property, even if maybe there is some technicality that makes that moot. People put so much work into these projects and then make them available to the world for free, the least we can do is respect their ownership of that content. If I say "It's technically GPL whether you like it or not" I might be right but that might cause the author to just no longer make their projects publicly available.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:43 am

listen this is being bent all around is a really dumb fashion..

first off a GNU license means it's FREE... now you can charge for documentation and you can charge for support. you can charge for packaging said software into a box but you are not to charge for the software.

this is how linux flavors get around this i can go and download redhat if i want. it's free... but if i want a box and disk i have to pay. if i want a 1800 help me fix my computer i have to pay.

now i am not stating how i want anything being run. all I am stating is that if a PLUGIN has been made to work with eventghost it fall;s under the GNU GPL and is FREE and we are in fact allowed to modify it and distribute it as per accordance to the GNU GPL license. as long as the author of the plugin has been given credit for his/her work in a manner that is visible to the user


it's in plain English... right on GNU's website

and it states that GNU software and it's source are FREE. now you can sell anything else that pertains to it as stated above. I personally don't give a hoot but I do think it's in a really foul way if someone is profiting from something made for a software that there is no charge for, and that software has to pay for things like hosting and domains by asking for charity from it's users. and i also think it to be foul to store that pay for use plugin in that software's forum and use that software's forum to conduct support from.

again. i am not stating that any of this has been done. but it's just morally wrong on so many levels. I am not judge, jury or executioner on this. but from what I have read and how I understand it the simple fact is the plugins made for EG get all nice and wrapped up in it's licensing. Now to put this baby to rest i am going to e-mail GNU and ask for a clarification and if someone can charge for a plugin and if EventGhost is allowed to distribute the plugin, but also if a person has copyright claim to a plugin made for EventGhost. I will carbon the E-mail to several forum members tht i have the e-mail addresses of.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby jonib » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:55 am

Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? From gnu.org
Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)


The "free" in "free software" doesn't mean no money, it means no restrictions to the user. As in freedom.

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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:03 am

Does the GPL allow me to require that anyone who receives the software must pay me a fee and/or notify me? (#DoesTheGPLAllowRequireFee)

No. In fact, a requirement like that would make the program non-free. If people have to pay when they get a copy of a program, or if they have to notify anyone in particular, then the program is not free. See the definition of free software.

The GPL is a free software license, and therefore it permits people to use and even redistribute the software without being required to pay anyone a fee for doing so.

You can charge people a fee to get a copy from you. You can't require people to pay you when they get a copy from someone else.


right below it
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:08 am

i am thinking this is something that can just get ping ponged back and forth... it all just depends on how someone views it.

but WE as in EG can distribute it if we want, and not charge for it even tho you made it an do charge for it..


not saying that WE should piss into anyone's cheerios like that but it can be done.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby pearbear » Sat Nov 19, 2016 6:23 am

I was not aware of of how the GPL applies to plugins until you brought it up and it certainly does seem like it could apply to EventGhost plugins. I don't understand the technical terms involved as they relate to which plugins it applies to but you know more about this stuff so I'll take your word for it but would also be interested to hear any other interpretations and especially an official opinion. I would never expect that interpretation from reading the wording of the actual license but I'll defer to GNU. I have no interest in profiting from my programming and electronics work but I don't have a problem with someone trying to make some money if it is done in a respectful manner. If that's how the license works then I hope everyone will respect the rights of bitmonster and the other contributors to EventGhost by licensing their plugins appropriately.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:01 am

pearbear wrote:I was not aware of of how the GPL applies to plugins until you brought it up and it certainly does seem like it could apply to EventGhost plugins. I don't understand the technical terms involved as they relate to which plugins it applies to but you know more about this stuff so I'll take your word for it but would also be interested to hear any other interpretations and especially an official opinion. I would never expect that interpretation from reading the wording of the actual license but I'll defer to GNU. I have no interest in profiting from my programming and electronics work but I don't have a problem with someone trying to make some money if it is done in a respectful manner. If that's how the license works then I hope everyone will respect the rights of bitmonster and the other contributors to EventGhost by licensing their plugins appropriately.




agreed, that is kind of what i was getting at.
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby topix » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:16 am

Hmm, do we have enough money to pay an lawyer to check our situation? :?: :shock:
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby krambriw » Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:33 am

Hello everybody,

I just wanna add some information from my side regarding my plugins that I have shared during the years

a) If any of my plugins still are found as attachments in this forum, they should be considered obsolete and could be deleted. I only maintain & support those found in the link below and those are always the latest (storage is actually a Google Drive in the cloud)

b) regarding licensing, my intention has always been they should be licensed like EG itself. So if anything needs to be changed, I will do once the final phrasing & format has been decided. So please provide a phrasing that all plugins should hold.

c) if the plugins need any other changes, like in the headers as discussed above, I will change them once when the format and content has been finally published, decided and confirmed

d) As soon as I make a new version of an existing plugin, the distribution format will be in .egplugin format


Best regards, Walter
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Re: Plugin manager for EG

Postby kgschlosser » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:33 am

hey walter this is by no means directed at you. we all know we can pillage your plugins anytime :shock: :wink:

and i do understand as to why the topic has been brought up. and i do not want to see EG have any kind of a legal problem. so what i can do is a search for the GNU-GPL in the header of a plugin anf if it is not found omit it from the list unless we were able to obtain written consent from the author. but from this step forward i do believe the traditional EG header is a mandate in a plugin and upon adding it to the repo if it is not there then it will kick it back. i think that the GNU actually should be located in a separate file called license.txt and a balloon statement for all files located within the contents of the .egtree file are apart of the GNU-GPLthis should be added either as a file or a comment in the compression. but also should be able to be viewed by the user at the click of a button. this will eliminate any and all issues relating to licensing and copyright of plugins.

because there is no real way to add a gnu to an icon for instance. so putting it in a separate file is what i think should be done. and then there is no need toh have it at the top of every single file. and it will also cover any .msi files or dll's that may be included with the plugin as well

my thought on this. but there should be a standardized way and i can put that into place with the plugins i have already compiled...

i do have one question tho. are we going to provide all versions of a plugin available??? or just the most up to date.. the reason why i ask this is because of the possibility of a new version of a plugin not being compatible with an older version of EG.
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