General Observations and Comments on the project

[Jaymax]

So I'd been meaning to play around with Girder for ages and ages - finally, having started reusing some kit for which I seem to have lost the remote, I ordered a USB-UIRT. While waiting for it to arrive I spent a few hours online just to see if there was any other software I should look at - saw mention of a few things, never EventGhost though. I looked into a couple, but decided Girder was definitly the way to go. So when the UIRT arrived I downloaded Girder and started playing around.

"Pretty good - bit clunky in places" I thought, but it did the job.

Browsing through the Girder forums, I saw EventGhost mentioned in passing. When the Girder Eval period was getting close to over, I thought I'd better check this thing out just to be sure.

EventGhost is awsome, it's more fluid and responsive that Girder for me - and SO MUCH more straightforward and, well, just useable! Sure it might be missing some of the super-advanced features, but nothing I have even remote interest in, let alone need for.

You guys should be proud of this.

However:

My (separate post) question about UIRT codes is in this forum because the 'New Topic' button for some reason (broken?) wasn't shown for me in the 'Plugin Support' forum. The support content here is not deep, and the WIKI is, sadly, basically empty.

None of that takes away from EventGhost itself - it is supurb! But developers aren't always the best for documentation and user support. Can I suggest you find someone not primarily involved in the coding effort, but close to the project, to be nothing but a Wiki and Forum co-ordinator. If other users are as enthusiastic about the program as I am, with a bit of a kick-start and a bit of structure, you'ld have a really rich and helpful Wiki in no time.

The program is too good not to beef up the support/help infrastructure - but that need not be too difficult - provide the support framework, continue to manage the support framework (ie: just setting up a Wiki is no good, need to create hierarchies, content tags, indexes etc on an ongoing basis) and the users will, I'm sure, provide the content.

Regards,
--J

[Bartman]

Create new topics in the plugin forum is limited to plugin developers. There should be a topic for every official plugin but there seems to be none for the USB-UIRT. The management of plugins is in a complete change at the time.
I would love to see the wiki filled. I guess we found a volunteer.

[Bitmonster]

and the users will, I'm sure, provide the content.

The new wiki is even easier to use than the old one, as every forum user can directly start editing it. But not a single normal user has even tried to edit some typos. So there is only one conclusion: they are simply lazy and bad, if they get a program for cheap and support for free.

And if enough content would be there, structure would come automatically, as this is an easy task if you have content. But structure without content doesn't help. Otherwise you would get something like this:
http://www.eventghost.org/wiki_old/inde ... ort_Manual
Some user started to create a structure on the manual but no content was added. So you only see lots of confusing headers, that makes things even worse.

Look at this nice posting: http://www.eventghost.org/forum/viewtop ... f=2&t=1653
Reaction: nothing
All want it, but no one wants to do it.

[jsonnabend]

So there is only one conclusion: they are simply lazy and bad

Ouch!

[Bitmonster]

So there is only one conclusion: they are simply lazy and bad

Ouch!

Yes, hard words, but pay attention that I've said "normal users". The only people who have helped the project till now are almost exclusively plugin developers.

[Jaymax]

and the users will, I'm sure, provide the content.

The new wiki is even easier to use than the old one, as every forum user can directly start editing it. But not a single normal user has even tried to edit some typos. So there is only one conclusion: they are simply lazy and bad, if they get a program for cheap and support for free.

No you're wrong. UTTERLY wrong. And basically, it's this attitude and assumption on your part that will ensure it stays that way.

It is the PROJECTS FAULT that the wiki is still devoid of user content - NOT the user communities.

See, I **WAS** keen, supportive, prepared - I made some suggestions - I specifically pointed out that just setting up a wiki never works, that you have to keep it dynamic.

Talk about how to work against your own success!!!

There should be a topic for every official plugin but there seems to be none for the USB-UIRT.

Don't acknowledge a total failure in the support infrastructure, built upon a lack of trust in users to initiate content (plugin forum threads), and then blame the user community for not contributing by initiating content (wiki articles) to the support infrastructure!

Gah!

----- [BELOW IS EDIT] -----

Later - once I've calmed down - and re-read. I apologise for lumping two project members comments together in the above. The point still holds somewhat.

Imagine what it's like coming across a great piece of software like this, and becoming an instant fan, and taking the time to put some comments in, only to be told that all users are 'lazy and bad'. If you're starting with that assumption, or even allowing the assumption to develop, your assumption will certainly become true.

I firmly believe the reason why some open source projects have strong user communities and others don't (and bemoan the users who ALL want something for free, and none want to contribute blah blah) is because at the core, some projects get understanding users (ie: human nature) right, and others don't.

But structure without content doesn't help.

This is nonsense - structure invites content invites structure. The project must assume responsibility for structure, and for encouraging and herding content.

The only people who have helped the project till now are almost exclusively plugin developers

This proves my point: What the above says is "The only people who've downloaded EventGhost and contributed back to the project are people who can code in Python"

Why is that? What does it tell you? The lesson is perhaps that the project appears to welcome user contributions if they come from someone who can help write code, but otherwise isn't really interested. It reinforces my initial impression on opening up the EG windows help, where the two top level headings are 'End User Documentation' and 'Developer Documentation', and further impression from the Wiki and the Forum so far.

There is every reason that EG should become very well supported by the user base - but there needs to be a bit of reflection and re-engineering at the very core of the project team around the view of 'end users', and around the support of user contributed non-python content, before that can happen.

I guess we found a volunteer.

Depends if my time taken contributing thus far has been an exercise in banging my head against the forum walls.

[Bartman]

Sadly enough just making an analysis does not improve anything and as you pointed out a developer propably would do things mainly for other developers. This would somehow defeat the purpose.
What do you mean with keep it dynamic? Constantly rework the parts that have changed and insert topics from user feedback in the forum would be nice but this takes dozens of hours and someone has to do it.

[Jaymax]

but this takes dozens of hours and someone has to do it.

Developing a plugin presumably also takes dozens of hours? But it's enjoyable right, and you feel appreciated?

[Bitmonster]

I guess we found a volunteer.

Depends if my time taken contributing thus far has been an exercise in banging my head against the forum walls.

See it this way: No one will constrain you, if you want to work on the wiki or to create some prototype pages of a new tracker/whatever to prove your point.

But before I actually see you doing something, you simply sound to me like many other thankless users, that seem to think they would have any right to demand more from the people who already spent reams of hours on the project for free.

If you don't want to kill your idea, don't expect other people will carry it out for you. They have more interest to work on their own ideas. And you should be happy, they do so.

[zeeke]

Hi

I do agree with Jaymax to some degree at least. I would like to contribute in whatever way possible to this project. I don't know python and I mainly use EG for the superb serial-plugin. It is easy to automate using RS232 without having to rely on plugins.

That being said, the EG documentation is below average. Just the fact that the download page is missing a Changelog is quite telling..

One thing that I find frustrating though is that I run EG on my HTPC and on my server. None of which is a good place to take screenshots and write documentation. I will however try to do a writeup on the serial plugin or USB-UIRT or some of the other things I've messed around with.

We have to start somewhere right?

zeeke

[Bartman]

For the public use I would like to see some more official releases (including a changelog). Writing a changelog (beside the subversion log) ist often more effort than doing the fix.

I could imagine that it is easier for a user to overcome its inhibition to write an article if you are not the first one doing so.

[jinxdone]

The main reason for the lacking documentation is that Bitmonster, like the other devs, like to code and enjoy adding new stuff and improving the program. Bitmonster's time is probably best spent when he focuses on the EG code changes and generally maintaining the big picture. There's only so much one person can do.

I think it should be our job as the regulars on the forum to help with the documentation, as long as the framework for doing so is provided, and it is (the wiki for example). I even posted a thread about the wiki some time ago, I guess I should go ahead and just start with one of the subjects I posted about. I'm sure Bitmonster will be as excited to help with the docs and everything as we are once things start to get done around here and we're not just acting like a bunch of freeloaders.

And the user support on the other hand can be tiring, especially since people often request plugin X and Y to be made for some device or program the devs don't even own and others just can't get things to work. It's not like the devs know everything about every possible device out there. Sometimes they are willing to spend their time to figure it out for free on their spare time. Writing the docs should help with this though.

But even still, at it's current state EventGhost is one of the best software projects I know of, and it just keeps getting better every day.

-jinxdone

[Jaymax]

you simply sound to me like many other thankless users

My interest in doing whatever I can to help with something I was incredibly thankful for has gone from huge two days ago, to absolutely zero now. Because of your attitude.

The problem is not 'thankless users' - it's you.

Get over yourself.

[Bartman]

The trick in achieving a goal is to do overcome some obstacles (which are pretty low in this case). I'm sure would have gotten some help if you wrote an article about your problems when setting up a EventGhost.

[Jaymax]

I'm sure you're right that if I'd gone in and started editing the wiki I'd have got some support from others - but I'm not going to put effort into something that's co-ordinated by someone with such an entrenched negative attitude towards the venture itself. c.f. the attitude (documented above) towards the last user who apparently put some time into the wiki.

I wish the project well, but I prefer to spend my volunteer hours where the biggest obstacle isn't fighting to be appreciated by the person who essentially runs the project you're volunteering for. If that person can't recognise that they're actively repelling non-developers from contributing, and that the basic difference here is that this time that person was inclined to say something, what's the point?

I'm pretty sure that you're wrong however about the scale of the obstacles [around making the wiki / general level of user support more successful] being low. I'm actually quite sad about it - my head has been buzzing with thoughts about he wiki and the windows help file for EG. But there's no point throwing a token article (or articles) at the wiki if the attitude isn't there to make it work, or worse, the core person's attitude is that it's all futile, and all end users are good for is as a crutch to support some feeling of martyrdom.

So yeah, I could have put something into the wiki, but it would have been pointless in the long the long run. I'm pretty sure I've now outlasted my welcome here. This exchange may actually have been of more use, triggering some introspection that might ultimately have some effect. In the meantime, I shall go fulfil expectations, and be a silent, non-contributing user, expectant of free and ongoing, bug fixes and enhancements - but, like most of us I'm sure, I'll be grateful.

Regards,
--Justin